Wonderment, what you wrote about the word proskyne'o (worship) reminds me what is said in more than one of the translators' footnotes in the 1901 ASV Bible (and maybe in the 1881-1885 RV Bible also). What you said is consistent with those footnotes. The footnotes were in reference to a human performing an act of 'worship' to another human in a way which the scripture portrayed as acceptable to God.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding the discussion about Yahweh's holy spirit, I never had appreciation for that concept, at least not in the sense of it being a person, not even when I was a very active JW. For me the concept of holy spirit was purely an intellectual matter which I gave very little thought to. Usually when I thought about it it was only when evaluating whether the Bible teaches that the holy spirit is a person or not.
That is because when I believed in Jehovah/YHWH I didn't think of him needing a holy spirit (as person) to accomplish tasks for him. The OT gives alleged examples of Jehovah having used angels to act as intermediaries for him, including delivering messages to humans, protecting humans, killing humans, etc. I thought that when Jehovah wanted to send an idea to humans he could do so directly without using a conscious holy spirit person to do so as an intermediary. As a result, the WT concept of the holy spirit simply being Jehovah's active force was consistent with that perception of mine regarding God and his dealings. As far as I can recall, other than as a term for God's mood or some other aspect of God's mind or God's intentions, or of God's power in action, the OT hardly uses any of the expressions of "holy spirit", God's spirit", "Jehovah's spirit", or the equivalent. In contrast, the NT speaks of the "holy spirit" a number of times - to such an extent that it is like it is a new biblical concept (relative to what the OT says).
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Reading the Bible Made Me Leave "The Truth" & Christianity
by Seeker4 ini was looking up a couple of verses the other day in my nwt reference bible the one with larger print, footnotes, cross references, etc.
in my day i was quite a diligent student - the bible is filled with my notes and comments, and i'd already worn out another one earlier.
one of the things that i found surprising as i was reading my notes, was how often they were pointing out inconsistencies, contradictions and obvious lies in the biblical text.
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Disillusioned JW
justsomedude do you still visit this web site? I hope so because I wish to say the following to you. I think you should have kept your Bible which had numerous notes in it by you, or I think you should have made copies of the notes before getting rid the Bible. I think that because the notes are important. I have some NWT Bibles which I am keeping because of the notes I made into them, at least until I make copies (perhaps photocopies) of my notes.
By the way folks, I found this forum topic by doing a search on this website using the terms of 'Bible' and 'contradictions'. A big part of the reason I am posting here and thus reviving this forum topic is because I hope more Christians who visit this website will read the posts of this forum topic. The first post of this forum topic and the post by Terry are excellent. I strongly relate to the first post.
The more I study the Bible the more problems I see in it and the more I realize (and am reminded of) how much of the Bible is appalling. It motivates me to resell more of the books I own about religion, including Bibles. When I bought the vast majority of those books I was a Christian with a strong appreciation of the Bible, but now I am atheist who is extremely convinced that no personal God (including Yahweh/Jehovah) exists.
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The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 22 - Biblical Apologists Toolkit
by RunningMan inover the years, i have run into numerous persons who have attempted to defend the bibles literal accuracy.
these opponents have presented explanations that range in quality from truly inspired justifications to pitifully lame excuses.
for example, when one believer was confronted with the fact that the ancient temple was credited with containing enough raw materials for a building more than a thousand times its size, he replied, "well, maybe it had a basement.
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Disillusioned JW
I very recently did a search on this website using the terms of 'Bible' and 'contradictions' and thus found this forum topic. The first post in this topic is excellent. It says important very truths. I hope by me reviving this topic that a number of Christians on this website will notice it and eventually change a number of their views towards atheism.
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3 Books - Bible Unearthed, 101 Myths of the Bible, and Early History of God
by VM44 inthree books that i hope to read soon.
the bible unearthed: archaeology's new vision of ancient israel and the origin of its sacred texts (paperback).
by neil asher silberman (author), israel finkelstein ($11.20).
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Disillusioned JW
I haven't yet read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, but I saw a televised NOVA episode (a science program) on PBS about a number of the archaeological findings of Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.In the show two Jewish scientists said they had expected to find evidence of the exodus but instead found no evidence for it and they concluded that the exodus didn't happen, but that the Jews started out as a Canaanite people who later adopted belief in Yahweh and who later identified as Jews and later claimed to have made an exodus from Egypt to Canaan. I recorded the show from over the air TV onto a VHS tape.
I saw the show during the time I was an independent Christian (after I had stopped being a believing JW about a year prior to seeing the NOVA show). The archaeology show is excellent and it greatly eroded my belief in some parts of the early Bible which Christians claim are historical. The program is called "The Bible's Buried Secrets" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible's_Buried_Secrets ) for more information. I making this post on this very old thread to attract the attention of people who haven't seen this thread. I hope that Vanderhoven7 and some other Christians read this thread. A year or two after I saw "The Bible's Buried Secrets" I stopped believing in Yahweh, Yeshua, Satan, angels, and demons, and in the Bible's claims of the existence of supernatural beings.
Maybe I will buy a copy of The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts.
By the way, I found this forum topic by doing a search on this website using the terms of 'Bible' and 'contradictions'.
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
The article I mentioned in my prior post also says the following. "Alcestis' virtue in taking Admetus' place is admirable in that she not only sacrifices herself for the man she loves but also for the people who depended upon Admetus for their continued well-being. ... In all ways, Alcestis stands as a model for proper behavior."
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
The article called " Hercules and Alcestis: Personal Excellence & Social Duty " says the following.
"In the version popularized by Euripides in his play Alcestis (written c. 438 BCE), however, Hercules plays the pivotal role in bringing Alcestis back from the dead. ...
Hercules is mortified by his behavior and so travels to the underworld where Thanatos is leading Alcestis' spirit toward Persephone's realm. He wrestles death and frees the queen, bringing her back up into the light of day. Hercules then leads her to where Admetus is just returning from her funeral. He tells the king that he must depart on other business and asks him to take care of this lady while he is gone. Admetus refuses because he promised Alcestis that he would never marry again, and it would be unseemly for this woman to reside at the court so soon after his wife's death. Hercules insists, however, and places Alcestis' hand in Admetus'. Admetus lifts the woman's veil and finds it is Alcestis returned from the dead. Hercules tells him that she will not be able to speak for three days, and will remain pale and shadow-like, until she is purified, after which time she will become as she always was."
Notice that Alcestis is said to have had a spiritual resurrection (to have been raised as a spirit) and is said to later to have had physical body again. The scholar James Tabor says that the Christians first believed that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, but that later Christians believed that the fleshy body of Jesus was also resurrected!
Also notice (in the story at the above mentioned website) that "Alcestis epitomizes the loyal, loving wife who is so devoted to her husband that she would literally die for him." Similarly John 15:13 (NASB) says that Jesus said "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends."
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In prior post where I said "( a human, if if every really existed)" I meant to say "(a human, if he ever really existed)".
Folks, please consider the following. I read in more than one book about the Bible, the Jews, and the Jewish religion, that the Jews concluded during their exile in Babylon that reason why Jerusalem was destroyed and why the Jews went into exile is because many of the Jews committed idolatry, by worshiping someone (a perceived God, such as Baal) or something (such as a graven image) as God. They concluded not repeat that mistake again and instead to worship only YHWH God alone, and not any human. A great many Jews were thus resistant to adopt any form of Christianity in which Jesus was proclaimed as God or a god. Furthermore, the Gospels says that the Jewish religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy due to his statements about himself, which sounded like (at least in the minds of the Jewish leaders) of claiming deity.
A great many Greeks and Romans in contrast had no difficulty with the idea of a human also being a god/God and they had no difficulty with the idea of their being multiple gods/Gods. That is because there religions taught polytheism, including that at least one person was both a human and a god. Hercules was was consider a son of a virgin woman and the God Zeus - and at the time Zeus was elevated in status to being the father of the gods and chief god/God over humans, to being God the Father! Hercules was said to have amazing feats and to descended into Hades (the realm of the dead) and to have ascended out it. He is said to have gone into Hades and order to bring a dead human (who had become a spirit) out of Hades alive - to bring about a resurrection!
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
It seems like some people on this forum are saying (granted with some scriptural support) that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are Yahweh, but that conflicts with Deuteronomy 6:4. That verse is the one which says "Listen, O Israel, YHWH (Yahweh) our God is one YHWH (Yahweh)." The Jews (of Judaism), in the form in which they substitute the word Adonai (Lord) call it the Shema ("The Lord our God is one Lord"). It is a key teaching of the religion and a big part of the reason they reject the Trinity doctrine, and believe in strict monotheism instead.
There is also an OT verse which says that Yahweh says there was no God before him, nor any other God currently, and that there will be no God after him. Hypothetically speaking, if Yahweh God is for real, then that would have been an opportune time for his to say that he has a son who is also Yahweh and that together they are one God. It would have been an excellent time to proclaim the trinity doctrine, yet the OT doesn't do either. If it had, most likely far more Jews would have accepted Jesus as the son of God and as God. Right?
Vanderhoven7, I agree with you that is understandable that many people would worship Jesus if they believe the following: he created (and/or made) all entities other than himself and God the Father; all power in earth and heaven belong to him; he has a name which is above every name; at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But to me those teachings ascribe deity (or something very close to such) to him ( a human, if if every really existed), and is thus part of the strange (to me) worshipful mindset they have of Jesus, in contrast to what much of the OT (the OT is more than 3/4 of the Christian Bible) teaches!
According to the Bible Elijah (I think) say if Baal if God then worship him, but that is Yahweh is God then worship him. I think he also (according to the Bible), but perhaps it was a different prophet, said don't go limping on two different opinions, worship only being/person as God - not two (or more). The Trinitarian Christians worship 3 as God (while also saying there is only one God, but nonetheless God consists of three persons).
Regarding the nature of God (of the Bible) parts of the Bible are contradicting other parts of the Bible.
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my post which is about an hour older than this post, where I said 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist" I meant to say 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jesus before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist."
Vanderhoven7, what do you think the Jews, specifically those who both believe Judaism and practice it, think of the NT's (the verses you cited) handling of passages about YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures OT?What do you think they think of the NT's applying various OT verses about YHWH to Jesus?
The Book of Jubilees (an OT Apocryphal book which is part of the sacred scripture of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, a Jewish leaning Christian Church) says that YHWH God ordered the angels of God to worship Adam (since Adam, according to Genesis and the Book of Jubilees) was made in God's image. It says that one angel, namely Satan, refused to do so because Satan thought it was wrong for himself to worship a being who was created later than Satan himself. From a scriptural point of view it would indeed to wrong for anyone to worship Adam instead of God, but interestingly some of NT writers say that Jesus (whom Paul says is the second Adam) should be worshiped).